Emily Merrell  0:00  

Hey, my name is Emily Merrell. I’m a taco loving people connector, and I’m obsessed with playing the name game and all things networking. I’m the founder of second degree society, a female focused networking community, as well as a business coach for female business owners, passionate about bringing their business to the next level with the help of events, community and connections. I crave deep conversations and am continuously curious to see what makes people tick, and I’m invested in uncovering their stories with some life lessons along the way. This podcast is aimed to inspire and educate as you tackle your busy day. So join the conversation and tune in for the second degree podcast. I’m your host, Emily, and today I am so excited. I’m already laughing. I think I’ve lost my voice from laughter. We’ve just spent 30 minutes getting to know each other, to have Susan Liu, who is a multi hyphenate storyteller podcast host, author, TEDx, speaker, playwright and performer as today’s guest. So Susan, welcome to the show. 

Susan Lieu  1:06  

Thank you so much. I feel like we’ve known each other for a very long time. Not 28 minutes, not 28 minutes. We’re like, oh no, oh no. We have to create more time to continue doing this. This is problematic about having a podcast in that I need them to be like, six hours, yeah? I, you know, you can only listen on like, 1.75x right? Do you listen to yours at like, 1.7 or No, I, I mean, maybe 1.25 it just depends, you know, like, is it like a soft narrative that I want to, like, savor every syllable? Or, if I’m like, Just give me the knowledge, then I’ll go 1.5 and you listen to it out loud. I don’t know if this happens to you, but like when you get into the car and your phone hooks up automatically, and your partner is like, what are you listening to? Is this a different language? I’m like, Nope, this is, this is Girl Talk fast, going very, very, very fast, but you’re insane. Like, Susan, you have done so much. Yeah, let me just start off. You’re insane. You’ve done so much, you do so much, and yet you also seem like a pretty grounded human being. So I’d be curious to hear from the beginning, like, what came first? Was it the what was the origin of your story? Like, who, what were you a playwright first? Or you’re like, then I’m going to do a TEDx, and then I’m going to be an author. And was this on the vision board? Oh, my God, I have so many vision boards. Um, but, but, um, I mean, the origin of my stories is that I never meant to tell my family tragedy. Out Loud, my mom had died from a botched Tummy Tuck when I was 11 years old, and for the next two decades, my family has never spoken of her or how she died like to this day, seriously and before I could become a mother, I was getting a lot of pressure from my dad and aunts to have kids, and I was like, How can I become a mother if I don’t know my own and there was this concurrent path, which was like, I felt like a coward in life. I was disappointed with the adult I became. And I had done stand up comedy years prior, and I was actually crushing it. I was at the game. Within six months, I was headlining at purple onion. I was at Carolines on Broadway, and then I go to this charity event, and I get heckled, and then I walk away going, like, that was so dumb. Like, that was, that was dumb. Susan, like, who are you? You think you’re funny. And then I walk away from the microphone for three years, and then with the pressure of becoming a mother, I was sitting there going, like, how can I say to my kid, be what you want in life if I didn’t myself, you know, like, I’m a child of Vietnamese refugees. I am a tiger mom. I knew I would project that onto my kid, and I’d be like art, like we can afford drama camp. How come you’re not the lead, right? Because it’s my stuff. And so I knew I had to take care of all that and clear that out, or pursue it, or have some kind of answer, before I just became a mom, and so really, it’s like, now I’m and I didn’t even know what to where to start with performance. I was like, I guess I’ll just do absurdist Andy Kaufman stuff. Like I wasn’t actually, yeah, I was my my first few iterations, I was, like, meditating, like it was like a light just on me, and I’m meditating in a rainbow poncho, and then, like, I’m about to touch a hammer, am I gonna kill you? Then I stand up and I feed everyone raisins, and I sit there and I stare at you, and I close my eyes in scene. You know what I mean? Like I was not planning on talking about my family stuff, because I’ve never been allowed to talk about my family stuff, but because my family could never answer any questions, I was like, You know what? I need to go find answers. So I track down my mother’s killer and his children. I read 1000s of pages of depositions. I seek the help of spirit channels. I go back to Vietnam several times, and every time I learn something new. I then put. In that one woman show because I realized it’s not that I’m stuck in the past, it’s because I didn’t resolve the past. That’s why we can’t live in the present. That’s why I don’t see a future without this trauma that I haven’t dealt with. And so it was really on my own healing journey of trying to figure out who I am and what I’m capable of, and who my mother was. That’s when I just started playing around writing a show. I never called myself a playwright. Once someone introduced me as that, I, like, almost choked on the chicken wing bone I was eating. I was like, Who are they talking about, right? Like, to call yourself an artist or a playwright, it feels like so official, or that you’re actually talented. And, like, I don’t have an MFA, I have an MBA, yeah, you know, like, I just needed to get the wiggles out before I could become a mom and and so I started performing this on stage, and the fifth one became 140 pounds. How beauty killed my mother. I took that on a 10 city national tour after I found out I was pregnant, because I was like, Oh, you feel the best in your second trimester. But really, I was, like, so scared. Like, I was like, so scared I was gonna have postpartum anxiety and that I just didn’t know, like, where my arts career would go, and I needed momentum. Like, also, like, my son was born, March 2020, like, Oh, my God, obliterated the theater community, right? So, like, so I was doing that and and on my first stop on my national tour was, um, my literary agent sitting in the audience who later asked if I wanted representation. And then I go on to get the book deal from celadon Macmillan, and I write it, and it came out March 12 of this of 2024, because I was on this mission. I was like, I need to publish this while I’m still 38 because my mom died when she was 38 she had four kids and two nail salons. This is my homage to her, and I was gunning for it, you know, like I was like, this, this needs to happen because also I’m a procrastinator, and I really need, like, real constraints, you know what I mean? And and so then it turned into the book, and then, and then, and I guess, a few months prior to that, I did the TEDx talk, and now I’m a public speaker. And the podcast happened during the pandemic, when the whole bunch of moms were texting, and we were just really miserable. And then we were like, what if we turned into a podcast? Of course, we’re overachievers. We all went to Harvard, like, turn your misery into a product. But, but, but it’s like in, in being vulnerable, right in, I call it naming the shame. I believe that when we feel we heal, like when we can allow that validation to happen and that sense of acknowledgement and being seen to happen, I think that’s when we can be liberated. That’s when we can feel free. That’s when we can process through our stuff. Instead of our stuff leading our lives, we are leading our lives. So that was taught to you obviously, you know at home every single day as a Vietnamese child of refugees every day that type of, yeah, because I was, I grew up in my parents nail salon since I was six years old. I was responsible for, like, confirming appointments when I was seven. No way, really, oh yeah. And like, I was, I had to make sure that all the customers wouldn’t leave when we’re running behind. So I had to, like, turn on the charisma, and, like, ask about their pets, and, like, take off their nail polish, and, like, just, like, be really interested these customers so they wouldn’t leave. Yeah. Like, that was, that’s, that was the family obligation, right? Like, we were this, like, small army, and at the front table was my mother, you know, the general and then I talk about it in the book, and the chapter Susan’s nails, like there’s a hierarchy of how we sit at the table, and then goes, like, the next aunt and the next aunt. That’s like, how skilled they are. And then finally, my dad’s the wild card at the airbrush table, because he’s always like, going to Costco for us, or like fixing things, you know? And it was like we were a unit making this happen. So when you walk into that nail salon, you’re like, Oh, I’m gonna get a new fill, you know? But it’s like, actually, the strategy you walked into our empire, right? That’s incredible. But I also love the fact that your humor was starting to turn on as a six and seven year old, where you’re having to rely on on yourself and their questions and your sharpness to get people to stay but also, like six year old Susan and your mom and your dad and your aunts and whatnot. Do you think they would have ever seen you going into comedy down the line? You know, I am.

I was very vocal, and I would say what I thought, and that was not allowed because I’m Vietnamese and I’m a girl, and that was seen as too masculine, or centering of yourself and wanting attention and like, you need word confusion, right? Like it’s like you need to stay in line. It’s about supporting the collective family. And so I think anytime. I was truly myself. It was, it was shamed, and then I would feel embarrassed, and then I was like, Oh, I have to be small to fit into my family, because you’re supposed to listen to elders, you know? And so I would say I was. I always kind of felt like the black sheep in my family, and then, especially after my mom passed, and I kept asking my my family, like, what do you remember about her? Like, are you okay? Like, it was just like, oh my god, Susan. Like, just, you’re so emotional, you’re so living the past. You’re so like, so any part of me that was ever expressive or wanted to be like light, you know, like, that was just seen as being self centered and wanting attention. And so I could only fill that hunger by doing Student Government. And so eventually I was student body president. I was leading rallies, I was on the PA every day, or I was doing student community service, and I was leading county wide projects, and doing a safety talk, and talking about, like, don’t pick up the needles by the railroad tracks. And it was like a fun dance, like San Francisco, that was in Northern California, and Santa Rosa, I would do, like a bend and snap, but like a stop and like to don’t pick up the needle, you know, like I was, but whenever I knew that my family was gonna be there, I would freeze because I knew I was not allowed to. So I think there was always been a push and pull about my dual Vietnamese American identity, about, like, honor the family, right? Don’t embarrass us. But also it’s like, how do I honor myself and this calling and my natural tendencies and my strengths, right? And your wicked wit? That it’s, I have to say, Guys, just as a side note, it’s, you can have podcasts with people who you’re like, you ask a question, they answer the question, where you have people that you drop something and they pick it right back up and and I so appreciate a quick wit, like a verbal ping pong type of thing. I think is like the most satisfying feeling, where you’re you’re done talking to a person, you’re like, kind of exhausted, just because you’ve gotta be sharp and you gotta be with it, and you gotta be focused. And I get that energy from you, so I imagine the people that you identified with and found to be friends hopefully could pick up that energy and and snap it right back to you. Yeah, but I think that’s been the life struggle, right? Like, my sister’s always like, why do you expect everyone to be your friend? And I was like, But why can’t everyone be our friend? You know, I think because I lost my mother when I was 11, I live with a sense of urgency, right? Like, and it’s I’m impatient about things, and maybe that’s my Aries ox coming out with my Mars rising or whatever. But it’s more like I just, I try to live like I’m mortal, right? Because we don’t know when we’re gonna die. But I think oftentimes we live like we’re immortal. We’ll deal with that later. Oh, it’s a problem. But whatever you know, instead of, like, I don’t know if this is the last conversation I’ll have with you, hopefully nice, right, but, but my last conversation with my mom, I actually told her I hated her, and it was this secret that I held on to for so long. And because my family wouldn’t talk about our past. I just, I just, I was so shameful, and in Alcoholics Anonymous, they say you’re only as sick as your secrets. And I felt so sick totally. And so it was when I was able to live with this resolve that I don’t want to have any regrets. That’s why I even started Stand Up Comedy in the first place. That’s why I started the solo show. Is just because I don’t know when I’m going to die. But if you read my book, Uncle number nine says when I’m 85 when I don’t know when I’m going to die. So let me live now, and if I’m not living now. What’s the fear that’s holding me back? And can I be honest about that? It’s incredible. It’s such a such a human emotion and feeling to bring to a conversation too. Just we’re always living like we’ll talk about it later. We’ll talk about it in the future. Schedule some time with me. We’ll handle it then. But really, we’re not dealing with the issues or solving that problem in the moment, because we don’t know when the moments will be. So talking about your mom, you she comes to America, to Northern California, it sounds like from Vietnam as a refugee. And was she the one who spearheaded owning the two manicure salons, or was it a, oh, it was all it was all her plan. It was all her plan. Yeah, she, I mean, to even come to America. She started an underground lottery operation and won it three times herself, and that’s how she got my dad and her my two brothers over after their six attacks. Camps to actually get it on a boat, to get to Malaysia, to the refugee camp, comes to the Bay Area, starts doing hair like but she realizes the money is not hair, it’s in nails. And then she realizes the only way she can sponsor over her sisters and my grandparents is to get off welfare, send, go where the cash is, which is in nails, because at the time, all these Vietnamese people like this, was a career you could get into with limited English. And so she gets training in that she opens up the first store sponsors over my three aunts and my grandparents and also my cousin and we are all operating there and working it and building her dream. And you were born in America. I was the only one born in America. You’re the only one class. You were the one who has, like, the duality of being both American and Vietnamese, but not Yeah. I mean, my siblings, like, they came over when they’re younger. So I think a lot of immigrant kids, like, they have to assimilate. They have to assimilate. And back then, you know, a bunny sandwich was not as cool as it is now. So I think we all felt similar pressures around that. For sure, I want to know how I’m always so amazed by the entrepreneurial spirit of immigrants, especially someone who’s coming over because they didn’t really want to leave their country or or they probably would have stated, had things been better, most likely. And then they come over to a place they know, they know very few people. And then she has this entrepreneurial spirit and sees the opportunity to make money in nails. How did one get a loan at that point? Or did someone have to sponsor her into getting her start? No loans. I don’t think there was a loan there. I mean, it was just Yeah, because then my dad started a newspaper boy, and then eventually he opens a gardening business called Tom’s gardening service, because he loved Tom Cruise and Top Gun, so he wanted to be named Tom and so that he’s running his business, and my mom has a chair and eventually saves enough money to open her first shop. Now, when we did after, when we arrived to America, we were penniless. Remember, like my parents didn’t finish ninth grade in rural Vietnam. Oh my gosh, they come here, and then within eight years of us being here, my family buys our house, but we had a co signer, which was my dad’s friend, who was also gardening. So like, I think the Vietnamese friends and relatives were just trying to support each other. I’ve heard this story before about first generations, how the community really leans in and pays it forward, where maybe they’ll be co signed, but then maybe your parents co signed on someone else’s house down the line. Or if they did get a loan, they they had it repaid pretty quickly, but it’s like, then they were able to build generational wealth, because they were able to ask for help. Where I feel like I don’t know if you feel this way, but a lot of Americans, we really struggle for asking for help. We have to do everything with i Everything’s about us now, on my terms or my terms, I can do it, not we can do it. So I am curious if there’s like this generational desire to help others that was infused a little bit, or maybe not. I

remember when I started doing community service my and after my mom passed, my dad would yell at me. He’s like, What are you doing? We see your time doing this, like, just focus on school. And I was like, ba, I’m like, I’m number one in this, in the class, like, I’m not. There’s, I’m fine. And then he was just so upset. Was so upset I was doing this. And again, the context is, is he came from communist Vietnam, and that the only people who can move social classes is those who could actually get an education, and to even to get into college, was so competitive because it was based on so much testing, you know, like he there was no such thing as extracurriculars are going to get me into a better college. Like there was none of that. And also, like, he didn’t also finish high school, right? So, but it was also a completely different country in a completely different time. So I think, in terms of the ethos of, like, oh, we support the community. Like, one, he thought it was I was wasting my time. Two, I would say the what is a community? And it’s really the extended family. So it’s not just the nuclear family, it’s extended. And my mom had 12 siblings, and yeah, so even as we were trying to build our future. Here she was sending money back home to her siblings, and then they were investing in, taking loans, outs, making and investing so that they can then till the rice patties until other people’s rice paddies. That’s insane. That’s insane 12 siblings, and did they all come to a. America afterwards, too. They all have their different stories, but I think right now there are five siblings in America, of hers out of 12, yeah. I mean, others have passed away, and others, yeah, had their own journeys of different things, but now five of them are over here and and they brought their kids, and now there’s more kids. So it’s just, it’s a very it’s an immigration story that happened because of war, right? And but the possibility of America is that you can climb the social ladder much faster than other countries. Yeah, right. It there. There’s more of a meritocracy in America than there are in some countries. Is it fair and evening playing field? No, it’s not. But compared to other countries, it it’s a magical Stairway to Heaven, exactly. I feel like that’s the American dream. Is like, coming over here you get this, you get the shiny object syndrome, like, oh, you can accomplish anything in America, which it sounds like is true. You can start your own existence not tilling rice patties and doing nails instead. Which brings me to that the American dream, like the idea of living the American dream. Do you know what your parents dreams were when they came over here? Like, what, what their success looked like for them? Oh, yeah, you should four kids. So let’s you got a choice, baby, doctor, lawyer, engineer, pharmacist, I don’t know why pharmacist. And also I don’t pharmacist and accounting. I’m like, Wait, why? But it was respectful, right? And when you went to Harvard too, like, did they know what Harvard was? No, absolutely not. I called my dad from the volunteer center of Sonoma County where I was volunteering. I told him I got in. And he was like, Well, why didn’t you get into Stanford? And then he said, I have a customer bye. And I remember I burst into tears afterwards, because I was always like, Man, I’m never enough for my dad, you know, I’m pretty sure he asked that customer, right then, what’s Harvard? Because he didn’t know. Oh, my God, no, you know. And how could he know? Right? He knew what UC Berkeley was. Well, we grew up in Northern California. My brother went to UC Berkeley, so they just wanted me to Berkeley, and I got to Berkeley, but Harvard’s financial aid was way better. And also was Harvard, Harvard? Like, it’s hard, yeah, but I only, and admittedly, I only applied to Harvard because I watched Legally Blonde, absolutely. And did you send an assented resume and, like, do all those things. No, but I did. I did start a chocolate company when I was in high school, and so I sent a recording of my sister and me on talk radio in Sonoma County of an hour long interview about us in our chocolate company. And were they like, what? You’re 17 years old, and you started a chocolate company that you still have to this day, I still have it, and we just opened our second store in the San Francisco Airport. Oh, my God, seriously, yeah, it’s called socola chocolatier. It means chocolate. It means chocolate, and Vietnamese. What terminal is it in? It’s in terminal three united, like an e6 so you remember, it’s by e6 but you can walk across terminals, so it’s really exciting and and it was my sister’s dream, and now she’s fulfilling that, and we’re infusing all the flavors with our Vietnamese heritage. And that’s her homage to my mother, our mother. I love it. So you guys all have done something to honor your mom in some way, shape or form, even though she never, she never knew that this was gonna happen. No which, like you had mentioned that she passed away with a botched Tommy tuck Yeah, and she was 140 pounds. She came over to America. She’s working in nail salons, but they grew up in rural Vietnam. At what point do you feel ideals of beauty influenced her so much that she had to make a drastic change to her body. When are the ideals of beauty not impacting us? So the traditional Vietnamese dress is called an AO Yai, and it’s a Long Tunic, and it’s really form fitting. So it’s, like, very conservative, because it’s, you’re like fully clothed, but you can see, like two inches of your your hips area. And if you are not, like a double zero or max size two, it does not look good on you. Okay? And every Sunday morning we would the the shop would open a few hours later, and so we would get to watch this variety show called Paris by night on these VHS tapes, and it was a Vietnamese variety show all these pretty Vietnamese women would be singing and dancing, and for a few hours, we felt like the stars of our own lives, instead of being in America and feeling inferior. And I would watch my aunts and my mom. Um, judge every woman in their ally. She’s too fat, she’s gonna get kicked off the show. Like, you know, what happened to her? You know? And it was just like, that’s just like, female judgment, right? These are impossible beauty standards that, not only are we seeing them on the Cosmo magazines in 17 and allure, like all these things we would get in the nail salon, it’s just like, reinforced by our peers and our family unit, right? Like, it’s, it was, she grew up in a time where she didn’t finish ninth grade. She was incredibly smart, and yet, yeah, you get married off, right? And, and it’s based on how you look, right? There’s no cohabitating with your partner and seeing if you want to, you know, like, it’s like, you look pretty, let’s get married and then go on a date, you know. Like, that’s, that was the era in which she grew up in, and so I don’t really fault her and my aunts for thinking that your body is your worth, because to them, it was that was their reality. So there’s that, which is she is swimming in judgment, as all women are, even today, and she had four kids, and she’s sitting in a nail salon chair all day, and she works seven days a week. The woman has no time for self care, yeah, right. There’s no time to exercise. And also, she’s managing a lot, because it’s 13 people in a four bedroom house, and she’s sending remittance back home, and she’s in charge. Okay, so I think now that I’ve had a kid, and I’ve seen how my body has changed, and I work out three times a week, and you know what, I don’t think I’ll ever lose the 15 pounds that I’ve been wanting to lose for 20 years. I could understand why my mom wanted something for herself, and that shortcut, trim off all this belly fat, start over, fit in the ow. Ya eye again. It, it’s, it’s not like I want to become Kardashian and like this is the only thing that matters, and screw everybody you know, like it was more like now I I truly see it as damn she was taking care of everybody seven days a week, going Home, doing accounting, doing payroll, doing everything, thinking about expansion paying off. Like, now two kids are in college, like she didn’t have any time to herself. I work five days a week and feel like I don’t have time for myself, right? How do you you know what I mean? Like, I think that there’s a new form of empathy that I have for because I think for a long time I was pretty judgmental, and I was like, my god, what a vain way to die. It’s preventable. It was elective cosmetic surgery, like, I mean, so there’s that which I want to place right there. Put it right there. And the other part is the doctor who operated her was on probation, had 19 lawsuits against him, didn’t carry malpractice insurance, and actively targeted the Vietnamese refugees with his services. And this is San Francisco in 1996 this is like Dr death, exactly. She walked into a trip. Did she know like, was she recommended by someone to go to him, or did he just target her and target her industry?

He advertised in the Vietnamese weekly. It’s called the penny newspaper. It’s called Bao Ma. And so it’s like a lot of ads of like Vietnamese lawyers and Vietnamese dentists and stuff. And they translate the AP news into Vietnamese, essentially. And so every week, when we go buy our Asian groceries and go to the nail nail supply so the nail supplies, sorry, nail salons, we go to the nail supply store, okay, and then it’s just there. It’s just the paper that everyone picks up. It’s always in every Vietnamese household bathroom in the 90s. Okay, it’s just there. And he advertises there. I eventually go find that ad again. I go into the archives. Oh, I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s pretty obnoxious. It’s, there’s a picture of it in my book, but it’s this, this white doctor with a big mustache sitting at a big desk, a mahogany desk, and then like, Vietnamese woman, kind of like, in a leotard, or kind of a bikini, like, with her legs spread open, like all with crazy 80s hair. You know, it was like, Yeah, but, and he just, was he charging a good price? Was it like cash only? And 30% 30% of his clientele is Vietnamese. And where did he operate? What did he operate? In a hospital. It was a clinic outside of on Geary Boulevard, and little did it we know, and we would only find this out later in the depositions, and also when the California Medical Board tried to take away his license, is that he had lost hospital privileges, privileges at Mount Zion so. I to this day, I’m a patient advocate now, right? Like, I’m encouraging people to look up doctors records, because you don’t, like, they can operate if they’re on probation. Why are they on probation? This was 1996 Google did not exist. You could not just, like, look it up. Slash, what are you going to do go to your county? Like, my mom, who lives in Santa Rosa, is going to drive an hour to the Aleve, like, the San Francisco County Health Department and file a records request. Like, yeah, it was impossible at that point. It was just taking someone at face value, and we today, just pretty much trust doctors, right? Like, for them, I mean, I’m so glad there are podcasts like Dr death, but there is this inherent trust that for sure. You know, remember my mom’s American dream, like, I want my kids to become doctors, because that means you’re respectable, that means you’re at the top of the social totem pole, like you’ve made it, like you’re going to be successful, like, so if she gives her money to this doctor, she’s not thinking, I’m going to go die tomorrow. No. And also, but it’s so funny, you think of the red flags now, like, if a doctor requested cash, I would be like, um, I don’t, I don’t think that that sits well. But maybe that was also credit cards weren’t as prevalent. Or, who knows, who knows who knows. So I So, I think with my mother, I mean, yeah, she wanted to be she had an ideal of what pretty was. And yeah, she wanted a shortcut, because she didn’t have time to take care of herself. And then, first off, that’s so freaking traumatic for you and a whole family at 11 years old. Did your did the manicure salons continue on after her her passing. After that, my family disbanded, and so my aunts and grandparents moved out. So we had two nail salons at the time, and then we eventually sold the second one, and there was my dad running the original one, and then it eventually went to near bankruptcy. So my mom was the pillar in the family, and so that’s why I describe my book also as the crumbling of the American dream. It’s like you can build and have wonderful things and then it falls apart, but worse is the family falling apart and not being able to talk or grieve to this day. Can you imagine, like your most powerful mother now disappearing in a flash, and like, now you she’s dead, but now she’s dying in a new way? Yeah, and so that, yeah, oh yeah, and so that devastated our family financially, for sure. And you also think, as an 11 year old girl too, like the places that you are what you’re going through. You’re on the you’re on the edge of puberty and finding yourself and your beauty ideals, and you don’t have your mom there for you to help you navigate that. Oh yeah. And then I still remember, a few months after my mom died, I was reaching for a second bowl of rice, and my my dad and aunts were like, Whoa, if you gain weight, no one will ever love you, and no one will marry you, and you’ll die alone. No one will love you if you gain weight, this is right after my mom dies from a botched tummy tuck. And I took it to heart, and I I worked out a lot, and I dieted and it and like, nothing. I felt like I just, I needed some form of control in my life, right? But, but when we say, Oh my God, my mother was in the beauty industry and succumb to these pressures, I’m like, it was actively reinforced by every single person in the family all the time. Yeah, girl and you have a sister too. Did she? Did she have the same treatment? No, because she was a double 00. Okay, good. Good for her. Good for her. Well, you see, the good for her part is perhaps she was born in a refugee camp where there was less nutrition. You know what I mean, like and so and my brothers also grew up in post war Vietnam. So I think we had different access to different things, you know, like, I grew up in America and I drink milk. Like, yeah. Like, we talk about how they like, maybe drink rabbit milk growing up, you know, like, because it was like, milk was not a common thing, yeah, you know, so it anyways. But the point that I make and in a number of my talks, including my TEDx talk, how to make peace with our belly fat, right? Is that oftentimes we are penalized as if we’re responsible, like we’re so lazy and we’ll and it’s our fault that we are so ugly and so unworthy. That is, you know, like we should do better, and I and I repeatedly still get those messages. If you look at the the talk, there’s 100 comments, and 80% of them are fat shaming me and say I should eat salad. They don’t even listen to the talk about like, how. We have intergenerational trauma around our bodies, right? And it’s so so, yes, it’s part of it is what’s our responsibility? But I’ve reframed the whole thing, and I’m saying, Hold on a second. My body is my mom’s last gift to me, like it’s, it’s her DNA. Is my DNA, and in a way, I carry her, she carries me. And so when I get upset that I’m not Barbie thin, when I get upset that I I don’t look good in a bikini, right? It’s really, actually this denial of who I am and where I come from, and when I reframed it that way, it there was just a small shift for me, like, I still feel upset with my body, you know, I still wish it could be different, but it’s changed. Like, the charge of it has changed. Instead of just saying, Oh, I’m responsible and I’m lazy, like, Guess what, guys, I actually work out a lot and, like, I eat anti inflammatory a lot, right? But it’s like, it’s my genes, man and and it’s my genes, and it’s because of my ancestors that I have a vessel called my body, and I actually exist in the here and now, and it carries me and allows me to do what I want in life. Isn’t that actually so precious, but the people who say salad and stuff like you, you should check it out. It’s, I will. I’m gonna go look at it after this. That’s insane. That’s, it’s up. It’s totally messed up, and it’s very much alive. And well, this blaming and attaching the worthiness to your bodies. And it’s like, just go work out. And it’s like, um, I don’t I’ve met plenty of very skinny people, lean people and skinny people to skinny people who are still upset with their bodies. Totally, right? It’s this mental thing where it’s about work in our existence. And also there’s body dysmorphia, like, slapped all over, you know, like it’s, it’s all Play Doh, mish mash of pain, especially in the generation. I’m not saying that this generation has it easy, but I think of like our generation of like, Victoria’s Secret Angels, and there was no representation in any of the models that we we saw day in and day out, at least. Now I feel like there’s a little bit more. You see diverse sizes and diverse shapes, but if you’re just being force fed angels basically, like, that’s because we were you were like, you went into Victoria secrets, and you’re like, I shouldn’t be here. I’m not allowed to be here, right? But it’s like, when you become 13 or 14, then you graduate, and you get to go there, and it’s this, like, passage, coming of age, and, like, what are all these letters, A, B, C, D, cup and these drawers. What’s in here? Oh, my God. Why are these underwears? Why do they look so thin? Why are they so much for so little fabric? You know, so little Yeah, they were so expensive, like, $35 for underwear. You’re like, what this isn’t, this is a sliver, just a sliver of fabric, right? But it was this thing that we were waiting and waiting to go do totally graduation of onto that chapter. But, like, it goes back to, like, who’s Where’s who is determining that worth, and it’s from which vantage point, which is actually from a head of Norda mail, right? Yeah, 1,000% I

love that song. What is it Jax does, like Victoria secrets is just a white male living in Ohio. So true. Just this old white dude who created up this idea, this ideal, and pedaled it out, and we all bought into it, yeah? Rinse, repeat, pass on generationally, until to what end. Which brings me to you have the incredible perspective of being a first generation. You had mentioned your Tiger Mom, which I can’t imagine you being super Tiger I am very competitive, and I think my fear was that I was that I was going to be a tiger mom, so I wanted to really deal with my stuff. But I do, like we’ve talked about it earlier on our pre call, Emily and I strive for excellence at Sure looks 1,000% right? You know what I mean? Like, you have a standard where you’re like, Be your best, because I know what that is totally and so I mean, I can’t I? I do. I see the trauma around like I attach my worthiness to accomplishments. Oh yeah, big time. And guess what? Nothing’s ever enough, and I can’t relax that much, and I’m always fight or flight. You know, that’s still Susan and it, there’s parts of it that serve me and parts of it that don’t. And so now, as a mother of a four and a half year old, I I see it, and sometimes I like, want it. I was like, you’re going to learn how to swim. How long does it take a kid to. Learn how to swim six to 12 to 18 months. Okay, I’m gonna target the six months, right? Guess what? My kid, he’s so upset about it, we had to stop lessons, right? You know, like, and then I have to stomach that being like, I never had enough money for lessons, yeah. Like, how dare you want to. You’re crying. You’re such a cry baby. I would have done anything to have lessons in swimming, right? But, see? But then I’m catching myself. I’m catching myself because I was too emotional. I was too I was always too much for everything, and it dimmed my shine, and I shrink. And so as a mother now, I’m really trying to be really aware of what I say, how I say it, you know. But even my kids doing speech therapy right now, and we’ve been doing it for a few years, and, and, and there’s exercises, you know what I mean, and it’s like always this tension of how much to push, how much to affirm. That was enough for today, because he has only a 15 minute attention span. Susan, stop, you know, like, but it’s it, but also, like, I’m like, No, we’re gonna build some grit right now. Let’s do it, you know. So it’s a dance, it’s a dance. But I think, because I’m aware that’s step 1am, I a perfect parent? Of course not, you know. And it’s just like, I am still unpacking everything that happened in my childhood that determines my behavior. Now, I still get very triggered about certain things, like, whoa, Susan, I thought this was about the salad dressings. Like, not about the salad you know. Like, there’s still, like, a part of me that is very wounded, and it’s like, God, I don’t want to pay for my kids therapy, you know, like, and so Absolutely, we just, it’s a delicate dance. Yeah, you massage it, you you see what you can push what you can’t. But I think to your point, like, the first step is acknowledgement that you could be a tiger mom, and you could take it to a certain level, and you could be disappointed he didn’t get into Stanford, or you could be really happy for where he is at this moment in time and enjoy the present. Yeah, my husband and I talk about, like, because, because now parents are talking about, like, school, like, elementary school, private school, choice school, charter school, like, what do you do? And then we’ve talked about it, and we’re like, okay, so, why? So then you get into a tier one school, and then what, you maximize your income, earnings on your, you know, first four years out, like, what? Like, we’re like, always, like, why, why? Why? And, yeah. And it’s like, I went to Harvard and Yale. I met my husband at Yale like, like, I guess what I’m trying to say is, like, I’m not looking for those badges for my kid, but I would be lying to you if I said I’m not still looking for my badges of worthiness, which is my one of my pieces of advice for other first gen listeners out there, right, is that I struggle with what I think success is because my book’s been out for six months, and I was telling my girlfriends this past weekend we get together every year. I’m like, Guys, I didn’t make it on a best seller list. I didn’t sell a million books. And then they’re like, what? And I’m like, yeah, man, I’m just so disappointed. Like, I wish I could do more. Like, I’m, I think I got to look into my executive functioning. Like, why, you know, like, I hope I have ADHD, because there’s got to be some explanation. Because I’m, I’m not trying hard enough. And I was, like, really breaking down because I was so upset that I feel like such a failure. Yeah, and your book’s been out for like, five months, and this is what you’re feeling, and it’s sold, what, hundreds of 1000s of books. Um, no, not. I wish it’s a very it’s, it’s done well, for what it, you know, for me, not being, I’m like, a D list celebrity, you know, like, not Prince, Harry, not like Obama. Michelle Obama is mad that it’s not next to spare. Basically, yeah, yeah, why don’t you care? Right? But I was like, if I try my hardest, like, why not? Right? And, and so I think there’s part of me that, um, I, even though I’m not in corporate America anymore, I was a management consultant, I am still a hamster in a wheel because nothing is enough, and I am comparing myself to other people who are like media moguls in the literary space or doing this or that, and I’m sitting there going like, wow. Susan, yes, yes, I feel privileged that I did go to two ivys. But must I say again that my parents didn’t finish ninth grade? Like, like, these people I compare myself to. I look into it. Are they nipple babies? Maybe? Do they have a trust fund? Probably, you know, like, and so, for some reason, I think I’m in America. Everyone has the same chance. Everyone’s on equal footing. So if I don’t. Sell a million books, then I’m a piece of shit. You know what? I mean? Like, I that there is a part of me in here that feels very disappointed with me, and that’s when I say, I’m a tiger mom is I don’t verbalize it to my kid, but boy, am I Tiger momming myself, and little Susan in there is just feeling like it’s her fault, you know, and it’s so, I think, for those out there, like now that we get to stand on the shoulders of the sacrifices of our ancestors, what is success to us? Because are we going to keep determining it by like, Oh, I was a speaker at the Aspen Ideas Festival, or, like, I was invited to the White House Correspondents Dinner, or like, I have a million followers. Well, guess what? You’re gonna want 2 million, then you’re gonna want a 10, then you want to make 100 then you want to go a billion. And I’m like, I’m not Billy Eilish. Her eyes, my God, they’re mesmerizing. But like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s just like one there is never enough. And so actually, if we can, actually, I need to recognize that, because otherwise I am always disappointed. Yeah. So the question is, is, what is the definition of success? How and how am I really measuring that? I told my the audacity of me. I told my girlfriends. I was like, I was like, Guys, I’m never gonna win an EGOT. Like, okay, and this is when we go home, and then they’re disgusted with me. And I talked about it with my girlfriend, because you know what I mean, like, I look around like, what does everyone else think success is? And then, you know, there’s only so many people with an EGOT. Whoa. That sounds cool, you know, and it’s just like, happy, get it. Well, who knows if they’re happy, but, I mean, they have an amazing but, like, it is not a goal to get an EGOT that is actually not in your control. To finish a manuscript is in your control, but being awarded in all those different awards is actually out of your control, right? And it’s like the core of what I do is I talk about intergenerational healing, and I do it with heartbreak and humor. That is what Susan Leo does, and so that is what I’m in control of, right? If I’m on another podcast, if I’m putting it out there that I I’m a public speaker, if I am, I’m also Miss Susan on look, listen and learn on local kids TV, like every time I show up and complete an episode that’s in my control, right? So I think for me, an ongoing struggle is, what is your success? What is your definition of success? What are your metrics? And also wise words by President Teddy Roosevelt, Comparison is the thief of joy. Why are they so true? I think it’s so true because so true I am.

It’s never enough, right? And I was listening Dolly Parton earlier, of Dolly Parton over the decades, and she was just like, the only thing I can be is myself, you know, and I love me, and I’m just gonna be the bright light and be me. And I got no advice for you, like you are living your life. You are on your journey. For you, right? I can tell you what worked for me, but that might not be applicable to you, right? And so, like, part of me is like, woo, woo. Susan, like, I’m like, Yeah, I’m like, on this journey, and everything is learning, and everything is beautiful, and then Tiger Mom Susan is like, No, it’s because you didn’t try hard enough, and you’re lazy. You get what I’m saying. So I feel like being the child of immigrants, I’m teetering on seeing the work ethic of my parents associating financial gain with success and worth. I think that that’s a really hard thing to teeter on, and I think I don’t want to blame external things, but you’ve got your internal work, and then you also have the external societal to your point. You can look at how many followers Billy Elish has, and how many egots have been given, and how many copies spare has sold, and and compare and compare and compare to the point of oblivion. Or you can lean into the hat here and now and be like, I fucking wrote a book that’s pretty cool, that’s pretty badass, and you didn’t even pitch the book. They pitched you. They found you. That’s amazing. I mean, I wrote, I mean, my agent found me, and then we were sold into houses, but, but, I mean, okay, so I might not have a best seller like, you know, and a best seller, national best seller. Like, I want those adjectives so hard. I want it so hard. But my memoir is taught in four colleges and two high schools. It’s used as a form of therapy at a facility in Northern California between refugee children and their parents. Where they read sections, talk about them, and then write their own narratives around trauma and about healing. I get notes every single day. Someone said, Thank you for your work around body insecurity. I’m writing a solo show. I’m performing it at March. This one woman, her daughter, is in eating disorder facility, and she says, I am having trouble waking up every day and being the grown up here because I’m so tired and exhausted, but reading about your mother makes me feel strong. I got a tattoo. I’m listening to your book for the third time. I was like, Oh, damn girl, yes, amazing. Is it your face? I hope I don’t know. I don’t know. I know I should I was like, Can you give me a screenshot? Give me a tattoo pick? There are people who are trying to make peace with parents. They felt like they never knew because those parents had PTSD from the Vietnam War. There are children of immigrants who are trying to figure out how to love their families and love themselves and how to actually have boundaries. And so I get these notes every day. I don’t think Prince Harry gets any of those notes. Are you sure? Pretty sure they’re probably like, why? What are you doing? I think that I would say that success that sounds and tastes like success to me, I think you making such an impact on other human beings. But speaking of success and to our listeners, how can we, how can we continue your message, and how can we, I love what you said about what did you say? Humor, humor, and what was the other eight? She said, Oh, heartbreak, heartbreak. Yeah, heartbreak and humor. Like I love that healing through heartbreak and humor. How can we be of support to you, and what are the best ways for people to plug into your world? Totally. I mean, first thing is, read the book. I do the I do the audiobook. I do the audiobook. Did you know you can win a Grammy for an audiobook? You’re almost there. You’re on your way, all scared here we found and even if I’m not on my way, I’m right here. You know what I mean, like, I’m trying to, like, Zen out. I’m my girlfriend gave me the book, the the the Taoist, the Taoist of poo. We need the poo. She’s like, can you read this? I was like, why? What’s this about? Okay, but no, um, you can read my book or listen it on audiobooks. The manicurist daughter, follow me on Instagram at Susan Liu L, i, e, u, um, you can watch my solo show on my website. Uh, Susan liu.me you can watch 140 pounds and stream it. But really like subscribing to my newsletter on my website, you’re gonna just see the different things that I’m coming out with right like I am on a kids television show, and I’m doing, like, a Vietnamese food Docu series that I’m like, starting to work on, and I’ve got this podcast called model minority moms, where we talk about being everything for everyone but yourself. Like, I think for me, I’m still a multi hyphenate storyteller. I’m very curious about film and TV, and so I’m starting to tinker around with that. But like everything else I’ve done, I had no training in it. I had no training to be theater maker or a writer, right? And it’s just kind of like, I want to encourage listeners out there, my mother’s quote, my mother, I remember, I always asked her, like, Mom, what’s your advice in life? And she told me, you have one mind, one heart and two hands, Hmm, do something with your life, right? So we can also, we can also, we can talk about, it’s not a level playing field. We can talk about all that. But when you think about this woman and her underground lottery operation, and then coming to the bay and somehow her child gets into Harvard, she watched Legally Blonde, like we’re talking about the odds here, right? This is like, harder than Powerball, okay? And so there’s something about, do we have the space to have clarity, to know what we want, and then do we have the courage to make small shifts like just like a two degree shift, a new choice, a new experimentation, so that we can see what else is possible. So I encourage people to live like they’re mortal. Be intentional when we feel we heal and go manifest the life of your dreams. 

Emily Merrell  54:32  

Ah, this is so good, so good. But it’s not over yet. Susan, oh my God, I’ve got six fast questions for you, and I got six best answers. Fast, fast. Let’s go. Let’s see what we got. This is gonna be hard, because I feel like you answered and you gave me so much. 

Okay, tell us an unknown fun fact about you.

Susan Lieu  54:52  

 I am blacklisted from Cuba that you were gonna say something else, okay, that I’m not. Can I even ask a follow up question with that one? So saved Emily. So saved who would be a dream person for you to have on your podcast? Keanu. Reeves, Oh, very good. Keanu, if you’re listening, no no no, no, no, no, I’m sorry. I’m to be honest. Emily Oster, Oh, I love her. Yeah, she’s great, yeah, yeah. I’m like, I thank God for her and having a baby, yeah. 

Emily Merrell  55:25  

Um, What show are you currently watching? 

Susan Lieu  55:29  

I don’t watch TV. No, really, nothing. Um, I want to get to Korean drama so I can better understand my mother in law. Oh, your mother in laws, Korean. We didn’t even get into that. Why? Feelings? Okay, well, we’ll talk post. Read the memoir. Okay, yeah, I have it on my desk. Going to read, um, okay, what book are you reading, besides your own memoir? What book Am I reading? The Dow, the Dow of poo. Don’t poo. I like that. Okay? Like, yes, it’s a long and deep one, I’m sure. 

Emily Merrell  56:03  

What is your favorite emoji, or most used emoji?

Susan Lieu  56:08  

 the heart that’s wrapped in a bandage like the healing heart. 

Emily Merrell  56:18  

Oh my gosh. I love it. It’s great. Say no more, and then you already answered this. But if you were to bottle it all all up in a shot, what permission Do you want to give our listeners today?

Susan Lieu  56:33  

 Girl, you’re the CEO of you. You the CEO of you. Hello. She’s getting gangster now for us at the final PRs, watch out Cubans. Wait also my other emojis, duh, the nails, one with the pink nails, I do that. You have to, yeah, yeah. I do both go in together then, like a band aid right after, if you do your own nails, that’s just terrible. 

Emily Merrell  57:01  

Well, Susan, this was an absolute pleasure. I am just so blown away by you your story. I’m heartbroken by it, but I’m also healed by it. So you did a good job there on that one. And I’m just like, I’m so grateful that the world has a Susan in it. Yeah, me too, because you are successful and you are the best. Thanks. Our therapy session will resume next week, at same time, same time, same place. Enlisters, if you like today’s episode, please follow Susan. Go check out her book. Go check out all of her incredible work, podcast TED talk, or TEDx talk, as we say now, as the cool people play and give her a follow on the socials, and we’ll see you the next time on the Second Degree. Have a great day, everyone. Peace out. You