Emily Merrell  00:00

Hey, my name is Emily Merrell. I’m a taco loving people connector. And I’m obsessed with playing the name game and all things networking. I’m the founder of secondary society, a female focus networking community, as well as a business coach for female business owners passionate about bringing their business to the next level with the help of events, community and connections. I crave deep conversations, and I’m continuously curious to see what makes people tick. And I’m invested in uncovering their stories with some life lessons along the way. This podcast is aimed to inspire and educate as you tackle your busy day. So join the conversation and tune in for the second degree podcast. Welcome back to the second degree. I’m Emily, and I’m your host and today I am so excited to have my dear dear friend, Victoria Sapp Burstein, who is now married, so I should probably add your last name to it. What’s your last name?

 

Victoria Saperstein  00:59

And said, legally change my name yet? But yeah, it’s like, eventually it will be Victoria Benson.

 

Emily Merrell  01:06

Benson. Whatever she goes by today, she is an incredibly talented photographer, and photo mentor. So, Victoria, welcome to the show.

 

Victoria Saperstein  01:16

Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here.

 

Emily Merrell  01:19

I love the fact that I get to start off my new year with your beautiful face and energy. So Vicki Victoria, I’m going to be calling you both of those things throughout, like some kind of one woman play. And we’re going to talk about your journey into being behind the camera. So Victoria, how the hell did you become a photographer because I imagine picking up a camera, and being self taught wasn’t something that happened overnight.

 

Victoria Saperstein  01:48

Yeah, so I’ve always had an interest in photography, I was always kind of the friend with like her digital camera out on the bow in like high school. When I graduated high school, I got my very first DSLR camera and went to college with that I got really excited. I actually minored in photography at Marist College. So that was a way for me to kind of embrace like that creative side. And I loved it. And I loved all my classes. We did like a film camera like class where we did like, you know, developing the film and the dark room. And just learning about Manos settings and stuff like that. So am I completely self taught, but I kind of what happened was, is I was an image licensing in New York City. And I kind of wanted a little bit of a side hustle, something that was a little bit more creative, because I was kind of in sales, even though I was working with like images. And so it was like the sale of the image. So I wanted like a creative way, a creative outlet. So I started doing photography on the side. And I was following a bunch of influencers and bloggers in the New York City area. And I was like how these people app, like, need to have photos all the time. Like, let me just reach out to a few of them and see if you’d be interested in working together. At that time. I was doing like family photography, I actually did a wedding. I didn’t newborn, like my best friend’s sister, like hired me to do like her baptism, like her her child’s back baptism. So I was really trying everything to see what would be my interest. But it wasn’t like, it was fun. But like, it wasn’t really like something that I was like, obsessed with, like I want to keep doing more of. It wasn’t until I started doing fashion photography, and working with these influencers that I was like, really, like, inspired. And I was just super excited. I just was like, from there. I just like waited for it. Um, long story short, I lost my job, and it was licensing. And my side hustle, then became my full time hustle as those months of interviewing with jobs. And my dad kept saying like, this is the time to try it. You don’t want to regret what if and look back. And so that’s kind of how my full time photography journey started. A very short version of that, but that’s kind of the overall

 

Emily Merrell  04:06

I don’t I don’t think I knew that a you minored in photography. I could totally see you being that friend with the digital camera out at the parties and putting your Shutterstock in or not. Where did we put them?

 

Victoria Saperstein  04:20

aistrup every Sunday morning? I would be like uploading the photos from the weekend.

 

Emily Merrell  04:26

Facebook. Oh god, that was the best actually miss that friend like I want that

 

Victoria Saperstein  04:31

friend. Yeah, right. Now, my friends, since I moved away from them, they’re like, We have no photos together because you’re not here.

 

Emily Merrell  04:40

Yeah, you’re you’re pushing people to like take that. Pause and capture that moment. And they probably remember what they did versus now they’re like, where was I? What did I do last Saturday. So then, you mentioned that you worked in image licensing. So for those that aren’t familiar with image licensing, can you break down What is image licensing? I can’t say that image licensing. Yeah, so

 

Victoria Saperstein  05:06

most people know like getty images or Shutterstock. And those are kind of the most known like image licensing agencies, I worked like a boutique agency. So we worked with like really high end, like fashion photographers, celebrity photographers. So it’s really cool overall just to like, see their work. But essentially, we had all their archive of work. And we were able to license out those photos to like other magazines that, like book covers, book publishing was one of my, like, clients, like marketing advertising agencies. So that was a way for me to explore image licensing. And at the time, I had no idea what what it was either, but I learned a lot from it. And then now, as I do it full time and implies my own business, I’m so grateful for that, like opportunity, and all those years of learning it because I feel like a lot of photographers don’t even realize what how important image licensing is, and how it can like really make a change in their business just to like, have that solid, solid knowledge. So it’s pretty much just like, every photographer owns the copyright to their own images. And so you’re essentially like licensing out those photos to your clients to use, like desired outcome, like how they want to use it. So that’s kind of like the overview of image licensing.

 

Emily Merrell  06:29

Okay, so image licensing experience, like an example would be using that image for a billboard versus like, Vogue campaign would be. So like,

 

Victoria Saperstein  06:40

when I worked as an image, like a licensing agent, I worked at rights manage agencies, so that was very specific on like, all the details. So like the price point, would change from like a full page in a magazine to like a quarter page, like last how specific it was, how I kind of address image licensing my own photography, business, and how a lot of other photographers do as well, it’s called royalty free. So essentially, like, the client pays one rate, and they kind of use those photos like across the board. And so rights managed, it gets a little bit tricky. It’s by her usage, where a rights royalty free kind of gives you a little bit more range, and the client is paying like one fee. So I kind of incorporate the image licensing fee into like my overall package rate. And I typically, for entrepreneurs and small business owners and bloggers, I give them rights to like social media, obviously, website, PR use, if you have like a speaking engagement going on in digital marketing, like for the newsletters, and typically, that’s totally fine. The only thing is like if they want to, again, do that billboard or want to, like do advertising in a magazine if people even do that anymore, honestly. But that would be an additional rate. So that’s also with bloggers, there’s a little bit of gray area there too, because I typically allow them to use the photos for like organic social media or for the brand campaigns. But if they need it, like that specific brand, like Nike wants to use my photo on their billboard, then that’s something I negotiate directly with Nike versus negotiating with my client, I just make sure that my client knows that ahead of time just to like, discuss that with me. So we can negotiate that licensing fee. No, that

 

Emily Merrell  08:23

makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s so smart to to a educate other photographers in that and be also educate the client and understanding the usage of the photos and and how far you can take them. Which brings me to that moment when you became a full time photographer. I love the fact that you were building this up as a side hustle. While you were working full time and hearing that you experimented that you tried events you did family photos, like you didn’t say no to, to anyone or anything. And then you found what clicked and made the most sense for you. So my question is, when, if you are a photographer just starting out, what advice do you have for them?

 

Victoria Saperstein  09:09

I wouldn’t say like, always practice and put yourself out there. I think experimenting with the different type of styles of photography is really, really helpful. But like Go ask your parents to go take photos in the backyard. If you want to do couple photography. If you want to work for like a business or something may reach out to them and say, Hey, can I purchase a few products? Or can you send me some products? And can I just do as a practice? Like I feel like just asking for help to you is really important. And leaning on community is also very important as well. Yeah,

 

Emily Merrell  09:49

flying that flag and letting people know that you exist. So when that moment happened, where you’re like, oh shoot snakes, I actually have to do this full time or I get to choose to do this full time. I’m what were the steps you took in legitimizing both like your, your mental state and your business.

 

Victoria Saperstein  10:06

Yeah, so I feel like my first year of business I was, I was kind of all over the place, I was saying yes to everything I was running around your city taking sometimes four sheets in one day. And I was kind of burnt out pretty easily. So I wouldn’t say that is any. But um, the biggest thing I think, from now it’s going into my five years of full time photography is setting some structure, setting some boundaries, and just being very clear on like, expectations in your client communication. I think those goes a long way in terms of having successful business and maintaining, like, some sanity as well. But when I first started, I think my husband, my now husband really helped me out on the finance side of things. I never thought I could do full time photography, it just felt like a dream and not really attainable. And it was really scary to like go that, like, the full time office job, we have the benefits, you have your set PTOs. And you have someone telling you like what you need to do every day, and also having a team and resources to like back you up. So for me, it just seemed like this crazy, like unattainable thing. But when what Ron really did was helpful, he like, broke it down, like, okay, what are your bills, how many photos? Do you need to hit your goal to pay your bills, and then we kind of just grew from there. So it’s just being really strategic. And of course, the way I became a full time photographer isn’t like the most recommended, like losing your job and just like diving into it. But sometimes I feel like maybe I wouldn’t have been where I am. If I didn’t have that, like, push on me like it was kind of forced on me. And so I didn’t have any security blanket to fall back on either how to make it happen, or go back to an office job. And once I figured out like, I love having flexibility in my schedule, I love to work with my clients. I love being a photographer, I was like, Okay, I can’t go back to the office job, I want to do this 100% And that was like my motivation throughout the years.

 

Emily Merrell  12:06

It I feel like this is a tale as old as time where a lot of entrepreneurs are met with a crossroad of like, it’s now or should I go and look at it indeed.com And see if I can find another job that fits me. But usually that that moment, says now, there’s not going to be another now that comes up and imagine starting it today versus starting it as many years ago, as you did

 

Victoria Saperstein  12:32

end up canceling, like a two hour interview. And that was the moment because I had a phone interview with this team. And it was a sales role. And I knew for a fact like I didn’t like that type of environment. I don’t work in that way where they’re like, if you hit your goal revenue, like your quota, you’ll get like a gift or whatever. And I was like that stresses me out more than like, motivates me. And but in my head, I was like, okay, but it’s like a steady income and all this stuff like you think. And so then they sent me out for the in person interview so as to be with like four different people, I think two hours long. The day before, I was just like, my gut was screaming at me. And I literally emailed them saying, I appreciate the opportunity. But I’m actually going to move forward with my photography full time. And I was like nervous of how they were going to respond. But they’re like, oh my god, good for you. We wish you best of luck. So I just was like, listen to your gut is also really important. Because I was like, Am I doing this? I was like, so scared. But then I was like, whatever get locked into this job that I don’t enjoy. And then I always think back of like, what if I just went for it? And so I’m really glad that I that I did in that moment.

 

Emily Merrell  13:39

And I’m sure they were like, all right, you’re probably making yeah, like I will find someone else for the interview it. We make it so personal sometimes when really like, we’re just a cog in third grade, or we’ll have things to do. But I do think that you writing it out insane to these people who you don’t know at all and

 

Victoria Saperstein  13:58

you don’t care about them. They don’t care about you. Like, this is what I’m doing. It makes it real. Yeah, it was the first time I like put it into words. And like went for it because I was so interviewing for jobs. And so I was kind of like the back of my head like, I really want to do this whole time but I’m still going out and like applying to these jobs and going on these interviews and I like it just wasn’t working out. And so I think subconsciously maybe I was like not putting my all in in these interviews potentially because I was like, I want to do this full time. But I’m like scared to do it. But yeah, so yeah, that’s kind of a fun little fight

 

Emily Merrell  14:33

or flight kind of internal dialogue that you had going for you. So I when I when I started my business, I remember one of the biggest intimidations that I had, or things that intimidated me was creating a hero image for my website of my face. I was like That is so weird. No one wants to see my face on a big website and why would I take a picture alone that Feels so counterintuitive. So I have now had, I don’t even know how many photo shoots too many photo shoots to count. But I’ve gotten over the fear of like taking a photo for myself and taking a photo for my brand. Can you walk through a, like best practices for brand photo shoots? And it’d be like, what are some easy fixes when you’re feeling anxious? To be photographed?

 

Victoria Saperstein  15:25

Yeah, so the first thing I definitely find a photographer you align with in terms of their style and personality, you want someone that makes you feel really comfortable and competent from the camera. And so I feel like that is a huge game changer. Second off, kind of have an idea of what you’re needing. Because I feel like, you know, you pay me that hero image, Hey, I just need photos for social media that helps a photographer, so just kind of knowing where the photos are gonna be living and how they’re gonna be used. And having also like, your website kind of figured out if you’re working with a website designer, or you’re kind of doing like meeting a refresh, just kind of knowing how the images are gonna be used, it’s helpful and then allying with a photographer, and when you’re feeling anxious, I like to do is like I like to blast like my favorite music. I’ve been behind in front of the camera. I’m not the most comfortable from the camera, if you believe it or not, heard me behind the camera. But I did my own rant photoshoot. Like last spring. And so I just had my favorite music going. I had, like, my dog with me at the end. And so it’s just doing stuff that feels like you. Also I feel like all people think they need to like buy a whole new wardrobe or like, Oh, get hair and makeup done and do all these things. And yeah, some like hair makeup can be helpful if you want a certain look and whatever. But you don’t need to go and buy like a whole new wardrobe. Just like find your favorite dress, wear your favorite blouse, because you want to feel the most comfortable. And I think people try they hype it up to be this big overwhelming thing to do a brand photoshoot. But it really should be fun. It should be representative of who you are as a business owner. And it should just be like relaxed and easy. And when you have the right photographer if they’ll help you with the planning, they’ll help you feel comfortable and confident and help you feel prepared which is super important. I think the idea

 

Emily Merrell  17:20

of wearing something comfortable and wearing something that you feel confident in is such a great reminder like a lot of people feel I feel like they don’t look like themselves in photoshoots and then you’re looking at the photos and you meet them and you’re like that’s not you That’s weird. Also, I will add Rent the Runway I think is such a fun

 

17:40

journey or newly is my top Oh, I’ve

 

Emily Merrell  17:42

never done I’ve never done nearly before you like it.

 

17:46

You these good it’s a little bit more like casual wear because they have like Urban Outfitters and anthropology is their main one and three people were Rent the Runway is more like fancier stuff. So for every day, I would say newlyweds really great. Okay, so

 

Emily Merrell  18:02

I think those are great tips. I think also knowing what images you need, so you can communicate. What about a planning session with the photographer.

 

Victoria Saperstein  18:11

So some photographers, including myself, include a planning call, which I think is really crucial. So essentially on these calls, we just discussed, like mood board timeline suggested props that I think the client should bring. I also give them a heads up on like parking and all that stuff so they feel really prepared and confident there’s no surprises. Also, another thing is to figure out like outfits we want to do again, we discussed like renting outfits pulling from your wardrobe already. Also another pro tip, if you’re looking to book a brand photoshoot is just like changing out a blazer to cardigan or switching out like a blouse to T shirts just like making quick changes. So they it looks like different, I guess you know, and so my goal is to always create a lot of variety but most photographers do include like a phone call or planning hall and I think that’s really important when it comes to planning your photoshoot. And also, if you don’t have it already, but like definitely have kind of an ongoing Pinterest board, or just like saved inspo on Instagram. So if you like like a certain pose or like a certain like aesthetic, you can have that siege and when it’s time for you to book your photo shoot, you kind of have this seat inspo and then I help some photographers kind of figure out like what studio works best. What outdoor location works best and making sure that like what you want is like delivered 100% But yeah, those are some kind of pro tips there. Yeah, I

 

Emily Merrell  19:44

think the planning call is so helpful. And to your point, like a Pinterest board or Instagram inspo of what the looks look like or poses the poses look like, what pose do you recommend? Is that you think every single person looks pretty good. And

 

Victoria Saperstein  20:04

there’s a few. I feel like it’s so funny because you can kind of read kind of right away. Like, every client of mine has her like signature pose is what I say, like, my, my client Montoya does this. It’s the green pea method where you’re like, you look like you’re holding a green pea, and she just, like, holds it up and like, looks away and it’s so cute. Or like you’re holding up pencil, so you kind of have something to do with your hands. Um, I would say just like, sitting on a desk, or leaning against like, a wall and just having like, a very approachable headshot is always great. And of course, do you like your photographer help you pose that moment? I don’t like to super. Most photographers, like don’t like to do super Posey stuff, especially like brand photographers. They like to kind of have you be natural, and then they’ll like, adjust you’ve needed. But yeah, I feel like everyone’s kind of different in that way. And like their goals are different. So yeah. Yeah.

 

Emily Merrell  21:02

I love I love the P one.

 

Victoria Saperstein  21:05

That everyone has their sins removed. So it’s kind of my

 

Emily Merrell  21:08

my sister always laughs It’s like the like, lean forward. I have like this, like lean forward last, like one shoulder out kind of situation diversity,

 

Victoria Saperstein  21:16

like for me, like over the shoulder? Oh, yeah, I’ve

 

Emily Merrell  21:20

seen a lot of over the shoulder with you. That is true. That is that’s something I’ll notice. So I know another thing that you’re passionate about seeing the way that you had to kind of backflip into business, with circumstances is mentoring other photographers who are up and coming. So what advice I know you said like not to run into it the way that you did. But how do you help people, especially people who are curious about becoming a photographer,

 

Victoria Saperstein  21:49

become a photographer, I feel like it’s the biggest thing is kind of setting, again, those boundaries and having some structure. And so I think I learned the hard way. So I want to avoid, like my clients and people who are looking to be able to avoid the mistakes I’ve made. So save a lot of time, but like just having contracts in place, having the Calendly link to book calls, having the honey book invoicing system. So you’re getting paid on time, asking for 50% deposits, these are all things I did not do. So just setting yourself up in that way. I’m also asking for help. Like, I feel like photographers, they always want to help each other out in a way. And so when I first got started, for me having other photographers in my corner and having them part of my community was really important. And they I learned so much from them. So I want to be a mentor to these aspiring photographers, but also just like an ally and like someone part of their like community to like lift them up, because I truly believe they’re like, there’s enough. There’s enough. The community over competition is what I preach and science for everyone. And it can be hard to think that when you’re starting off, you’re like, oh my gosh, he’s doing so much more than me. But again, like, I feel like everyone says this, but really don’t compare yourself to other people and their progress. Because it’s there’s just like a different path. And it’s totally fine. But like if you just stay kind of in your lane, focus on your goals. I think that is super important along with like setting those, those that structure in place for your business. I think

 

Emily Merrell  23:28

that the fact that you’re giving back to individuals and helping mentor people who were once where you were, is the greatest gift that is out there, like learning from saving people money, energy, heartache from,

 

23:44

you know, burnout for sure. For now,

 

Emily Merrell  23:48

the breakups breaking up with a client.

 

Victoria Saperstein  23:52

Again, like how to kind of manage, like communication prior to the photo shoot during the photo shoot, when to take when to change outfits. Sometimes clients don’t still want to keep taking photos and you’re the ones who have to be like, Okay, we have 10 minutes left. What are some things you want to get done before the photo shoots wrapped? And this is all stuff like when I first started, like, my shoots would go over every single time like 30 minutes sometimes like 45 minutes over because I’m just like, I don’t want to like tell them no, because we’re having fun. It’s also like a business and it’s your time and that’s valuable. So I think that’s the biggest thing is just like yeah, like knowing your worth and setting structure up and setting those boundaries and yeah, all that fun stuff. No, if

 

Emily Merrell  24:38

so, so, so important. Well, Vicki, how can people find out more about working with you shooting with you. Following your beautiful photos, what’s the best way for them to

 

Victoria Saperstein  24:51

stay in touch? You can find me on Instagram at F victorius alperstein. You can also fall Like, find my website at www victorious operasi.com. In addition, if you want to learn more about my mentorships and my coaching, I do offer 60 minute power sessions for aspiring photographers, or even like established photographers that just have a question. And so you can book that over on my website as well. But I also have a separate Instagram for my coaching and that’s at Creative ground coaching. And so you can follow me there. Ah,

 

Emily Merrell  25:27

I love it. I see a podcast coming in your future too.

 

Victoria Saperstein  25:31

I don’t know I’m not a good. I feel like I’m not a good speaker.

 

Emily Merrell  25:34

He’s like, no, no, I’m behind the camera. I can’t do this power posing podcasts not going to be happening. Okay, Vicki, I thank you so much for that information. We’ve got six fast questions for you now, and then we will wrap things up. So my first question for you is a lesson unknown fun fact about Victoria.

 

Victoria Saperstein  25:58

So this is actually really funny. But my great grandfather was the founder of the Harlem Globetrotters. No way. So it’s a fun fact that yeah, it’s kind of crazy. So like my great grandfather is like in the Hall of Fame.

 

Emily Merrell  26:12

What’s what’s his name? Is a sapper seen. Gave the sacristy A B, E. Eight. Wow. Well, this is a fun. He was a co PA. He was a coach. Look at a full circle. They’re

 

Victoria Saperstein  26:27

crazy. I know. It’s such a fun fact. Everyone’s like, Wait, why? Because it all stuck. Wait,

 

Emily Merrell  26:34

this is amazing. Where’s the name? sapper spin. What is? Is that? Italian?

 

Victoria Saperstein  26:40

No. What is it Jewish? Yeah. Are you Jewish? I’m not Jewish by religion, but the name is but yeah. Wait, that’s amazing.

 

Emily Merrell  26:49

I didn’t know that. That makes sense. Yeah, it was yesterday. And that makes okay. That’s crazy. So wow, I’m gonna go like this is awesome. I think my husband’s gonna either like be like, that’s really cool. Or what’s the big deal? But that’s so cool. He was a basketball executive and businessman. Hmm. He died. Oh, he died so young at 6063.

 

Victoria Saperstein  27:14

Yeah, I never obviously never met him. But um, so definitely a fun fact that Yeah.

 

Emily Merrell  27:23

Now I’m like, he’s one of nine children. Like, I’m going down a rabbit hole. So that’s awesome. What? That I don’t know how we’re gonna beat that one. But who would be a dream person to do? Yeah, yeah. To be connected with or I’m gonna put a spin on that. to photograph. It would be a dream person to be connected with.

 

Victoria Saperstein  27:43

You know this, though? I don’t know. I don’t know. 50. So Taylor Swift. I don’t think I could like physically do it. Because I’d be like, Oh my God. But I’m always like, if I just met her, we’d be friends. And Taylor. If you’re listening to this podcast, let me know.

 

Emily Merrell  28:01

She has. She’s my number one listener. It’s crazy. Here’s a fun fact. You’re connected to Taylor Swift in that. Mercy stout, who is a member of second degree society. She grew up with Taylor Swift. She babysat Taylor Swift. Her brother works for Taylor Swift. stad. She bought her Christmas trees at his at their farm. The Christmas

 

Victoria Saperstein  28:25

tree farms. Yeah. Yeah. So they are best friends.

 

Emily Merrell  28:31

I know. I was like, what was that relationship like? So? That’s a fun fact. I always like to drop that I hold on to very, very hard. What show are you currently watching?

 

Victoria Saperstein  28:46

Oh, God, am I kidding? I love like, trash like reality TV. So I grew up watch everything on Bravo. So every housewife. But lately, I have been watching the trust on Netflix. Brand new, new episodes just came out today. So that’s been interesting. I didn’t know it’d be into it. But it’s been it’s been good. Also, another show that people don’t talk about enough is the Buccaneers and Apple TV. Oh, the old the one like their old timey. Yeah, they’re like American girls are like England. I just finished watching that too, which I’m like, no one talked about that at all.

 

Emily Merrell  29:26

Okay, the trust is also a reality TV show. It looks like that’s reality.

 

Victoria Saperstein  29:32

Reality show

 

Emily Merrell  29:34

is on Netflix. This is what I’m saying.

 

Victoria Saperstein  29:38

watching Gilmore Girls because my comfort show. So yeah, you need like an ice cream show basically. Exactly. Yeah. Like my emails at night.

 

Emily Merrell  29:47

Like something in the background that you don’t need to pay attention to. I like that. What book are you reading? It can be personal or professional.

 

Victoria Saperstein  29:56

So I’m actually just started reading deeper than money. Hmm, I don’t know the author off the top of my head but I’ve been really into it because she’s starting off the book with like, money mindset. And the way that she writes it is very digestible. And it feels like our friends talking to me versus like it being so like, buttoned up and like so I really like it so far. I’ve only like a few chapters in But

 

Emily Merrell  30:25

look closely, Elise deeper than money, ditch money, shame, build wealth and feel confident AF. Oh, okay,

 

Victoria Saperstein  30:33

that sounds good. I really like it so far.

 

Emily Merrell  30:36

We’ll have to add her to the book list. Um, what is your favorite emoji?

 

Victoria Saperstein  30:43

I use the camera emoji a lot of flash. Like

 

Emily Merrell  30:47

that’s very apropos for you. And my final question for you is what permission Do you want to give our listeners today?

 

Victoria Saperstein  30:57

permission? Yeah. Permission to just be yourself and go after your dreams. Like if I never thought I could be a photographer full time. And here I am, like living that dream. And it’s so like a pinch me moment every day. So I just feel like go after go after your goals. And just be yourself. Yeah,

 

Emily Merrell  31:23

I love that. Victoria. Victoria, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom in the photography world and mentorship with us today.

 

Victoria Saperstein  31:33

I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Yeah. And listeners.

 

Emily Merrell  31:37

We loved having you here. If you liked today’s episode, share with a friend. Give us five stars and we’ll see you the next time on the second degree society with Emily Merrell. Bye