Emily Merrell  00:00

Hey, my name is Emily Merrell. I’m a taco loving people connector, and I’m obsessed with playing the name game and all things networking. I’m the founder of second degree society, a female focused networking community, as well as a business coach for female business owners, passionate about bringing their business to the next level with the help of events, community and connections, I crave deep conversations and am continuously curious to see what makes people tick, and I’m invested in uncovering their stories with some life lessons along the way. This podcast is aimed to inspire and educate as you tackle your busy day. So join the conversation and tune in for the second degree podcast. And welcome back to the second degree. I’m your host, Emily Merrell, and today I am so excited to talk about something that I’m passionate about, sleep with pediatric sleep consultant, Miss Jillian Kozlowski, Jillian, did I butcher it too much?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  01:01

You’ve got it. You did it?

 

Emily Merrell  01:04

Last names and nerves y’all, it is like the most intimidating when you’ve seen multiple vowels and then also be thrown in there. Jillian, welcome to the show. I’m so excited to talk to you today.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  01:16

Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.

 

Emily Merrell  01:19

Are you as passionate about sleep as I am?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  01:22

I am so passionate about sleep, probably more than you,

 

Emily Merrell  01:28

I am sure, so much in fact, that you turned it into a full time career. Good first, first and foremost. I before I introduce who you are, were you someone in your youth that like prioritize sleep, or would you have said you were a night owl who could just party on forever?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  01:47

Yeah, I don’t. I definitely did not prioritize sleep as much as I should. Now I’m like, Oh, I probably should have gone through my program as a kid so that I would like to sleep more. Definitely like to stay up later, but then not, yeah, not in a morning person. So I need sleep, but I don’t feel like I prioritized it when I was younger,

 

Emily Merrell  02:06

totally. I feel like it was especially when you’re a kid, too. And I think this is a great segue into what you do boundaries. Like you don’t realize how much someone telling you you have to go to sleep actually makes a difference for like, your own, your own sleep patterns and habits and routines and routines. So speaking of sleep, how the frick, did you get into pediatric sleep and like, Was this something that you have, you graduated college and you’re like, I am going to be a pediatric sleep consultant? Or did that come later? Absolutely

 

Jillian Kozlowski  02:39

not. That definitely came later, but it’s interesting now, looking back, I feel like the path was paved along my professional and personal life. So in college, I studied psychology and then went straight to get my Master’s in psychology. The plan was to then go get my PhD and be a professor and research and all of that route. And then I was I had the ability as a grad student to teach an undergrad class, and I didn’t love being the professor. And so then I kind of did a pivot, and I started working in higher education. I worked with military education programs for a bit, and then many years at the University of Texas, academic advising, working one on one with students and kind of reaching goals and coaching and all of that for higher ed. And then I got pregnant and had a super tough pregnancy delivery. Our daughter, she colicky, tough newborn, all of the things. She’s the best ever, but it was really tough, especially that first year. And she is one of those kids that, yeah, would not want to prioritize sleep if we did not help her learn how to prioritize sleep. So it was when she was almost a year and a half, worked with a sleep consultant. I didn’t even know that was a thing, even with my background in psychology and behavioral and developmental psychology, it’s different once you become a parent and it’s your own kid, and you’re like, Well, I kind of just thought babies sleep when they’re tired, like you see a little cute videos of them, like falling asleep in their spaghetti and stuff. And I’m like, Nope, that would never, ever happen. And so we worked with someone, and it completely transformed our whole parenting journey, and watched our child start to become well rested and just kind of thrive each day. And it was so transformational that I loved my work in higher education. I grew my career in that and I just felt like this calling like, hey, there are so many parents like us that just think this is how it’s supposed to be, and we’re barely functioning, barely surviving. And so I knew that I needed to get trained in that. And then in 2020, like many pandemic born businesses, I launched snooze baby CO and now I get to do this and support parents, and it’s incredible.

 

Emily Merrell  04:58

I have so many. The incredible follow up, because this is so it’s so cool to hear that you you started off with like, a very clear path. You knew that you were going to be a psychologist or a professor teaching psychology like that was the vision You saw for yourself. And so I love that you gave yourself permission to pivot and a test it out. So many people feel so married to something that they said out loud that they they stick it through, even though they’re miserable. So I’m so grateful for that teacher that allowed you to test it out before you jumped into Professor hood, or whatever we call it, professorship. What is there a word for that? Being a professor,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  05:39

I don’t even know. We can make it that word up.

 

Emily Merrell  05:42

We’ll make it up. So you had that. And then I and then thank you for sharing about Elodie too. Because I think so many people, they think about the birth and that’s when everything else beyond stops. I think we’re so focused when you’re pregnant on just like, let me get through birth. I want this type of birth, or I want the kid to be healthy. And you don’t really have a sense of like, what is going to happen once you bring this baby home from the hospital, your breastfeeding journey, or your feeding journey in general. So sleep is one of those things where people are often left Googling, like, how do I make this kid stop screaming? Yeah,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  06:23

totally. And I think, like, I know, as a first time on myself, like we did the hospital birth classes, I even did, like, a breastfeeding class, and some of these, you know, you you make your registry list and all these things to try to prepare, but I didn’t, I really didn’t know much of anything about baby sleep, and wasn’t thinking that you don’t really know what struggles you might have or what specific needs your child might have, whether that is sleep or feeding or, you know, developmental needs, things like that, until you’re in it. And it’s amazing that there’s so much available at our fingertips parenting in this generation, but it also can be overwhelming, and that like you you’re supposed to figure out yourself, because you can, like, find it online and things like that, but knowing now as a parent, I feel so strongly about getting support for different areas of parenting, like, we’re not supposed to have to figure this out

 

Emily Merrell  07:10

on our own. No? And it’s not just like a urban legend or an oral legend that is passed down family to family. So how did you find your person, like, how did you find your sleep consultant? Yeah,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  07:23

great question. So we were living in Austin, Texas at the time, my daughter, she was born in 2018 and I was in like, you know, those early Facebook groups were like, moms of 2018 babies, and everybody was always posting different, you know, sleep questions. I have love hate relationship with Facebook, moms groups and putting questions out there. But someone was like, oh, you know, this, this person helped us. And I remember, I did a call with her. She’s a consultant based in Houston, and I had that call, and I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I had this sense of hope that, like someone felt like they could help me, but I also was super skeptical, like my husband and I feel like we had felt like we had tried everything, like, you know, our pediatrician recommended, you know, the fervor approach, which works really well for a lot of families. Our daughter was super, super spirited and strong willed. So, you know, we felt like we tried that. But then we’re like, Okay, the first thing like, Oh no, this isn’t working. And didn’t really know where to go from, from there. And so once we had the call, and then I remember, three to four weeks later, I was like, we can’t do like, we can’t pay for something. What if this doesn’t actually work? Like, what are we doing? Like, we’ve tried so many things. We should figure this out ourselves. And then we got to a point my husband, I were like, we just, we have to try this. Like, we have to reach out, back out to this woman, like, we don’t we? I don’t know what else to do. And we did. And within three days, she was going from three to five wakings at night, and she would just scream and scream and scream until I would nurse her, even if she was in my husband’s arms, to completely sleeping through and she just needed and which many kids do, kind of that just a plan and some structure and some warm boundaries around sleep and kind of those expectations. Because, like I said, she would never herself, prioritize, hey, I’m tired. I’m going to sleep, even to this day, she like, I’ll never admit those words,

 

Emily Merrell  09:02

I’m tired. I was Elodie. I’m pretty sure as a kid, I still am. When my husband’s not home, I’m like, it’s two in the morning and I just scrolled to the bottom of Instagram, versus him being like, it’s 830 I’m gonna go to bed. Like, okay, I’ll go to bed too, totally. But so at what point? Like, how old was she when you had tried everything and you’re like, I’m gonna seek outside guidance.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  09:26

Yeah, so she was 14 months when we reached out to this woman, Caroline, and I remember when she was six months, right? Very poor six months. You know, we hit this. Kids hit this four month sleep regression, they call it, but it can happen anywhere, three to five months, where five months, where their complete sleep cycles change, and they mature from newborn sleep stages to adult like and it means they have more light sleep stages. So if they don’t know how to get back to sleep during those many light sleep stages through the night, they’re going to need, you know, some sort of assistance to get back to sleep. So when she hit that is when. And she had started, you know, we’re in daycare and getting all the colds, and hit that it was just like, sleep went awful. And I remember, everyone’s like, well, when she turned six months, then it will start, you know, she’ll start sleeping through, or when she’s in her own room, then she’ll start sleeping through. And, like, all of these, like, elusive times that we were just waiting for, but it wasn’t happening. So then, after she turned a year, and then it was, she turned 14 months, and that’s when I reached out. And it was now, I mean, I work with families up four months and up up till five years old, and it’s just, it’s, it’s incredible to look back and be like, Okay, we so many nights where she was just crying and upset and trying to figure out how to get to sleep, but we were just waiting for this time to for sleep to be figured on its own, and really we just needed, you know, a focus plan that that fit her needs.

 

Emily Merrell  10:45

So can you share with us what that plan looked like and how she evolved in her sleep cycle from 14 months on?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  10:52

Yeah, so I trained under the sleep sense program, and that’s what the consultant that I worked with used, and so it’s a really parent present approach. So a little different than Ferber or controlled crying or some other types of methods. There’s really only four types of sleep training approaches. There is extinction cry it out, which a lot of people hear, and they’re like, I don’t want to sleep train. And they think that’s the only thing available. There’s kind of the no cry approaches, which is like, they call them super gentle, where you’re doing a lot of pickup put down. And then there are kind of the middle ones, like Ferber controlled crying, and then an approach that I use, which is related to like the chair method, or stay in the room. So what that looks like when we worked on sleep for Elodie, and what it looks like when I work with families, is you’re able to sit right there next to your child, especially if they’re used to co sleeping with you, or needing to be rocked in your arms or fed to sleep. We kind of meet them where they are, and I coach parents through a specific combination of voice and touch to use to help them settle. And every few days, we move you a little further away as they start to develop some of those internal skills. And by the end, you’re able to lay your child down, walk out the room. They fall asleep within 10 minutes, and then sleep through the night until they’re rested and ready to start the day.

 

Emily Merrell  12:03

Wow, wow. It’s it is mild. It’s wild to see that there’s only like, four approaches, or you said four approaches that, yep, and you’re absolutely right with, like, sleep training. I think people think that you’re like, putting your kid in a crate and leaving the room, and it’s like, the most horrible thing. So I love that approach, and how there’s that parent present. I’m reiterating what you’re saying. What about full feedings? Is that something that you you’ve incorporated at all into your work? Yeah,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  12:34

so that’s definitely important, before going to sleep for the night, to have a super full feeding, so that babies are, you know, they’re they’re not hungry when they wake at night. But any babies under six months, and that’s kind of a gray area, I really tailor it to each family under six months, I always build in a night feed in the middle of the night. So it might not mean that they’re sleeping completely through at four and a half months, but you know, they wake. Let’s say it’s 1:30am you’re able to give them a feed. They get back to sleep within 10 minutes and then sleep through till the morning. So that’s one thing that I think is a misconception, too, is sleep training, where it’s like, you have to, like, completely cut off feeds and all of that that’s really based off individual needs, and every kid’s a little bit different with what pediatric providers might have recommended. If someone’s a little lower on and gaining weight, then maybe we might incorporate another feed. So those are things that get taken into consideration. But one other interesting thing I just wanted to add, as we’re talking about working with Elodie. So I have two kids. My second Jude is two, and he was completely different when it came to sleep. And if I had only had him, I would kind of think, why do you really need somebody like me? Like you just figure it out, and they just sleep. And maybe there’s naps here and there that are tough, or like, nights, ups and downs, but some of our kids really, really struggle, and some maybe don’t. And so there’s such different sleep temperaments, which I think is really important to think about when we’re supporting parents that and just, you know, giving advice to parents that every every kid is different, even within the same family. And

 

Emily Merrell  13:57

I think you we’ve talked about this before, both Jude and Jackson are like, what are they called prank babies, or trick babies, where they’re so easy in terms of their sleep or whatnot, that you look at people who are struggling and you’re like, well, you’re doing it wrong. I’m an excellent parent, which I know, I know I’m Yeah, hoping that when the time comes that we have a second he is not he or she is not a psychopath,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  14:25

yeah, and you’re so right, because that was opposite for us, like with with eldia. Kept thinking, what am I doing wrong? Like I thought, and I’m one of six kids. I love taking care of kids. I was like, Oh, I’m gonna be so good at this motherhood thing. And then it was just, what am I doing wrong? Why can’t I soothe my child, or get her to sleep, or all of these things. And then once I had dude, and I was doing all the same things, and he was just peacefully content newer and laying in my arms, it was so healing and validating in that, hey, I was doing everything. I was doing a great job. She just had different needs, and it didn’t mean there was anything wrong with her. All babies are good babies, not just. Ones that don’t cry a lot, but it was really healing to kind of see that. And I think you know that can happen with different kids with even in your same

 

Emily Merrell  15:07

family. It’s so true, and that’s a great reminder, especially if you’re listening to this and you’re like, Oh my God, I feel like a crazy person. I’m doing all the things I’m told to be doing. So speaking of doing all the things, what advice do you have for people who are expecting or have a newborn and they’re trying to navigate this sleep thing, you know, in the kids of a few weeks old at this point, when do we start actually introducing structure into sleep?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  15:33

Yeah, that’s a really good question, and you really can start introducing solid sleep skills from day one. I always tell families, and I have a newborn guide, because I think so much of the newborn age is just education. We’re not sleep training newborns, but we’re helping to have some balance in, you know, having contact maps, but also helping your child learn to fall asleep and sleep in their bassinet, or, you know, some in their crib, some independent sleep space, while providing a lot of comfort. So really at you know, day one, but I always tell parents the first few weeks, please focus on your own healing and like bonding and feeding. Because feeding is so critical for good sleep, we need to make sure our kids are well fed so that they can sleep well. So focusing on that. But then in the newborn stage, you can introduce so many great things, routines. I always tell parents, once you start seeing those first miles, is a really good time to start introducing some a bedtime routine. So my main advice around newborn stages and really baby sleep in general, is to take away any sort of judgment on yourself, around like, Oh, if my baby doesn’t have a long nap, I did something wrong, or take away that judgment and just have that curious mindset while also understanding some balance and that you can be a parent and be well rested doesn’t mean your kid’s never going to wake up. No, they might be sick and they, you know, might be teething, and there might be some ups and downs, but it doesn’t mean you have to be I’m a parent now and now, I have to just be exhausted at all times.

 

Emily Merrell  16:55

I think that’s a really important permission to give people. And even for my own parenting journey, I had to see it modeled by parents, by individuals who are peers, like they could still have a life, and they could still be cool, cool people and have a kid, or, you know, have a kid and have people over. And it wasn’t all hush whispers at their home. It wasn’t like they didn’t treat it like everything was precious, and that really gave me the permission to, like, do the same with my kid. And I feel like he could sleep through earthquakes and tornadoes at this point, he is just he. He loves ambient sound, which I know is not the case for all kids, or some kids who that they need a lot of quiet, or they need a lot of stillness and so and to the routine part, I my husband, I think, made it his job to treat our son like our dog. And hear me out when I say this. He is really into routine, and our dog goes for three or she doesn’t. She only goes for two walks now, but she used to go for three walks, basically within every seven hours of each other, or every six hours. And so she always knew she was going to go out. So our dog never asked to go out, because she knew she was going to go out. There was that expectation. So he definitely influenced the dog, or took the dog training skills that he learned and applied it to our kid. And so one of the things that we did at the beginning, he was a little jaundiced. We had to feed him a lot to get him to stop being jaundiced. We set alarms for every two hours to wake him up. And that was helpful for me, too, in terms of, like, my sanity, of being woken up by an alarm, versus like a death rattling cry and and then we continued doing that with, like, his sleep schedule, like he’s, I don’t know I he made, printed up a whole schedule, and we did the full feeding thing, which was a interesting learning, because my supply diminished tremendously. And we’ve talked about this before, but, like, I basically ended up my breastfeeding journey, but I was able to sleep more, so it was like a catch 22 I wish I had learned before going into it.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  19:08

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think that that comes up a lot. And I think if, if people are able to breastfeed a lot of times, there are a lot of emotions to it, and supply issues can be a thing and things like that. So I always feel really strongly for for parents that I work with to talk through that, especially if a baby is under 678, months, because if you do cold turkey, like remove feedings, and that can really impact someone’s breastfeeding journey. So I think there’s a lot of there are some negative messages around, you know, sleep training, or if you do this, it’s like at odds with breastfeeding and all that. And, yeah, when parents do it on their own, like it, I mean, it’s not your fault, like that, that does happen. And I think as long as people are well informed, and that’s important to me, as I’m working with families, to know, hey, if you do this, this might happen, or maybe we’ll want to pump, and some parents don’t want to pump and they’d rather sleep, and it’s okay, and that’s, you know, it’s just being. Being informed, I think, is the most important piece right, like, so that you can make a decision that feels right for you, for your family, and nobody knows what that is, except for you 1,000%

 

Emily Merrell  20:09

and I love that that information too, that being able to inform someone of that choice, that I definitely will make a more concerted effort next go round to, like, hold on to it a little bit longer than I was able to with, like, the return to work and him sleeping through the night, which, hey, any

 

Jillian Kozlowski  20:27

amount of time you do one day, or even deciding to is incredible. Like, moms, it’s incredible. I and I feel, I feel strongly to one of the things you talked about, like, I work with all, parents, all types of parents, stay at home, working parents. But I feel a special emotional bond with two parent working households, because I think there is such a need like, you want to be able to focus on your career. You want to be able to be a good mother. You want to be able to rest, because you need that, and have some self care. And if you’re not sleeping at night like you can’t function in any of those ways. And so I think that’s so critical, because in our society, sometimes we put especially mother’s needs last. You got to sacrifice everything for your kid. You got to make sure that you know all of these things happen, and then you end up at the bottom. And we know that sleep deprivation and lack of sleep all of these things are correlated with poor mental health outcomes. So we know sleep is critical, and so sometimes there’s a mentality that, like, you’re being selfish, if you, you know, want to protest sleep, like, Absolutely not like that is so, so critical to our functioning. Yeah,

 

Emily Merrell  21:33

you think about postpartum depression. You think about all of these, like these, all these domino effects that can happen from lack of sleep or in can play a significant role, in addition, because of lack of sleep, okay, I have a question for you about snooze, baby. CO, you started this, this business, basically during the pandemic, and you went, you blew up. What was, what was that like? This little mom living in Texas, this academic How did it feel to be this big personality and this big, big voice in the sleep pediatric consultant world?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  22:12

Yeah, it’s been very interesting. So we were living in Austin, Texas when I launched and, you know, started my Instagram page I was still working full time, so it was just on the side. And it wasn’t until after I had dude my second that I started posting more videos and tips and just things that I was working on with him. And that’s when first video went viral, and just kind of cascaded from there. And it was exciting, but also as, like, a natural kind of introverted Empath, like it was, it was a lot to get all these, like, napping is bad, or, like, these weird comments that I’m like, Okay, I’m just trying to help people. But no, I’ve been so fortunate and have been able to reach families across the world, which has has been incredible, especially by nature of launching during the covid pandemic. It’s like all of my work was virtual. And so now I’m in Denver, Colorado, as Emily knows, but now kind of building more of a local presence, where I can go into homes and see people in person. But it was just really incredible for me too, after having my second we were living in a new city. We moved from Austin to Rochester, New York for two years. I had a baby. It was winter, and actually, like, I felt such a sense of community having even though it was all, you know, on social media, but like, connecting with other moms was really a powerful time. So yeah,

 

Emily Merrell  23:40

I think it’s so cool. And I think one of the things about sleep and what you’re servicing and what you’re doing is that it doesn’t matter if you’re a bajillionaire or you have $2 to your name, like people can benefit from what you have to offer, and you offer so much incredible free content for people. And then there’s also the deeper dive if they’re looking to explore further. So what? What’s the best way for people to find out more about working with you?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  24:07

Yeah, thank you. So my Instagram page is at snooze baby Co. Website is snooze babyco.com And the best way to get started is I always offer a free discovery call, and it’s about 15 minutes, and it’s a way for us to meet each other, talk through parents, sleep goals and kind of where they are now, where they’d like to be, to see if it’s a good fit. I think it’s important that people feel ready to make a change. So I always want to, I can, you know, filter through that as we’re talking to feel like, okay, are you really ready to start this change, this process? And then I’m able to share about my approach too, to again, see if it feels like a good fit. But I love getting to connect one on one before families decide if they want to kind of move forward and have that one on one support. I actually just launched an exciting kind of group format too. So that’s hopefully something that will continue, depending on that how this next one goes. And so that’s an option as well for families. Yeah. Hmm,

 

Emily Merrell  25:00

and what? At what point when someone is feeling like they want to reach out to you? It doesn’t matter at what stage their kids are at, like they can reach out to you now or one day old?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  25:13

Yeah, I actually have, I’ve had parents reach out to me even before baby’s born. Like I said, I have some newborn resources and offer, like, one off calls to kind of talk through some of that. Sometimes parents just need somebody to talk through, even though it’s amazing. And I am somebody who puts out content on social media. There are lots of sleep consultants. There is lots of sleep information. And I’ve talked to parents that I’ve worked one on one with that are like, I just needed to tune out all the other people. Just pick one person to listen to. And so having a call and being able to talk live with somebody can be so helpful. So whether you have a newborn or one of my favorite ages too, is like that three to five age range where it’s like, maybe your kid was a great sleeper all through the baby stages, and you’re like, Oh, this is amazing. And then you get them in a toddler bed, a big kid bed, and all of a sudden they’re asking for every single thing under the sun before bed, and it’s turning into this huge, you know, bedtime showdown, or they’re asking for you to lay with them all throughout the night. And so that’s something that I work with as well. And I love incorporating positive behavioral strategies and some of that, like excitement, so kids feel excited about going to bed rather than this, like negative separation time. And so that’s a funny age to work with

 

Emily Merrell  26:20

too. Oh, I I am, hopefully

 

Jillian Kozlowski  26:22

not scaring you. I know.

 

Emily Merrell  26:24

I’m like, oh my god, him in a toddler bed scares me so much. Like, I like that he’s in a crib now that he’s contained. He doesn’t escape yet. He tried for a little bit. And my husband was like, we’re ready. We’re gonna do a toddler bed. And thank goodness for you. And like, set the front that I pulled I was like, here are the facts, babe, we’re not gonna get him into a freaking toddler bed unless you want to sleep on the floor every night, like we’re not doing that good

 

Jillian Kozlowski  26:48

call, and when you do make him out. My biggest advice, especially if anyone’s listening has kids in this age, is, instead of going to, like the toddler bed without the rail, go right to like a twin or full size bed, because it’s easier for them to understand to stay in there then, like the one that’s kind of real close to the ground. So that’s one tip. Ooh, okay,

 

Emily Merrell  27:05

we will definitely, we will be sideburn on this. Oh, I was gonna say one more thing before I ask you some six best questions. But one of the courses that I took before we had Jackson was the four S’s. And is that something that you like to share with people?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  27:23

Absolutely? Yeah, it’s the, I guess you’re the swaddle, swaying, sucking, all of those different Yeah, and yeah, those are incredible. I teach that in my newborn guide as well, because, and the whole thing is doing them all at one time. It’s a five S’s, I think, right? Five S’s, five, S’s, bottle, bottle, suck, sway, shush,

 

Emily Merrell  27:47

fake. But like, I guess that’s the sway. Yeah,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  27:52

I have it in my guide, but yes, they’re undo, them all together at the same time. And it can really help, especially like newborns, like needing to settle. And it can be magical. Yeah,

 

Emily Merrell  28:02

I felt like that was, that was all we did. Like I was, he was just in this, in this motion in our arms when he was crying. And if he cried for like a second, Greg would look at me and be like, Did you do the five? 5s What? What are we missing? Five? S’s, five, sleep. S’s, hold on, hold on. I

 

Jillian Kozlowski  28:22

should know this off my, top of my head, no,

 

Emily Merrell  28:24

maybe it’s four. Is it five? It’s what are the five? Soothe. We had soothe,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  28:31

yeah, we’ve got swaddle. Oh, this. We forgot the side or stomach position. Oh, side, yeah, swinging, sucking, yeah, and the side one, it

 

Emily Merrell  28:40

was like a small stack of potatoes that would just be constantly Binky at the time that you just like, shoved into his mouth and held there, like, there we go. We’re gonna stay, fall asleep. Good arm work out there anyhow. Well, Gillian, thank you so much for sharing all of your incredible insights and tips on all things kids sleep, you honestly should probably create a whole new program for people in their mid 60s and 70s sleep, because my mother is now my teenage daughter, and will call me at like, 950 and be like, Hey, what’s going on? We need a wind down routine, mom. We need to, we need to come because they have, they have their own sleep issues, like, Mom, get off Instagram.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  29:29

I love moms.

 

Emily Merrell  29:30

I love it. They become your kids. Okay, so I’ve got some six best questions for you. Are you ready?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  29:36

Ready?

 

Emily Merrell  29:37

What is a current TV show you’re watching? Oh goodness,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  29:43

the bachelor,

 

29:47

high quality,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  29:49

gonna have just like, kind of like the trashy TV shows to unwind from the day. I

 

Emily Merrell  29:53

love it. What is your favorite book that you love? Recommending for people to read. I. That’s

 

Jillian Kozlowski  30:00

why I thought you’re gonna ask the book reading right now, because after your recommendation, I’m on Iron flame.

 

30:06

Are you enjoying it?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  30:07

I’m very much enjoying it. And I got my sister on board, and it’s a whole thing. So you started. You started. It

 

Emily Merrell  30:12

started the fire. I was with a girlfriend this weekend, and she was like, she had 10% left to me, we’re out for dinner, and I was like, we must go home like, you cannot have just 10% left of the book and have a normal conversation, and her husband’s reading it, and like, she got the whole I was like, I can’t imagine my husband reading this book and actually enjoying it. I feel like he would roll his eyes at 98% of it was fully immersed and fully on board. So would your husband read it?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  30:47

I mean, I read him one page because he’s like, What are you reading one page from the book? I’m like, yeah, no, he would not read the whole

 

Emily Merrell  30:55

thing. Yeah, yeah. He’d be like, I’m not gonna say the words on this, on this podcast, what is your favorite emoji, or most used emoji?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  31:07

Oh, probably the smile with the like crying eyes, because I really like to laugh. So laugh about this till you cry. Not

 

Emily Merrell  31:14

the sleep emoji. I’m surprised. No,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  31:16

I told you, I need to work on my own sleep. Probably

 

Emily Merrell  31:21

again, this guide will be creative for you. Tell us an unknown fun fact about Jillian.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  31:28

Oh, um, well, I used to be a ballet dancer. I danced for your ballet company for many years, but I also used to be a basketball player. And really fun fact that I think you’ll enjoy being the networking queen. When we lived in Austin, I joined the Austin Women’s Basketball League, and I had not played on a team since eighth grade, and I had to go to a rating session, and my basketball skills were not as good as they used to be. And a lot of people had played college, and they were going around being like, what level were you? I was division one, I was Division three. I was like I was eighth grade, but I was very proud of myself, putting myself out of my comfort zone, and then I was runner up for most improved player. So I almost got it, but I wasn’t quite bad enough to start that is

 

Emily Merrell  32:17

a great fun fact, I played basketball in freshman year of college, and we were defeated. So I would have, I would have been with you on the What level are you? Second year, two year old level? I’m pretty sure I shot on the wrong basket at one point. It was the stuff I blocked out of my brain. Um, guys, she is an incredible dancer. I had the privilege of going dancing with her the other night at a women’s event, and she did the full on splits in the middle of the dance floor.

 

Jillian Kozlowski  32:47

We have to also give a shout to Claire from clarity collective, because she did a split for six weeks postpartum. And I don’t even know if I don’t know what possessed me about seeing her. I was like, Yeah, girl, me too.

 

Emily Merrell  32:59

I told that to someone. She was like, did she split anything else? I was like, I don’t know. I don’t think so. I think she was, she was in the clear, like, that week, and, yeah, she crushed it. It was, it was inspirational. And it’s definitely something I’m gonna aspire for the next dance, to try to touch my toes and get too surprised, I

 

Jillian Kozlowski  33:18

didn’t, like, pull a hamstring, or am I grinding out so good? Who would

 

Emily Merrell  33:24

be a dream person to train their kid sleep train their kid? I’m changing this question for you. Oh,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  33:31

well, if you need me someday, Emily, it would be

 

Emily Merrell  33:37

cheat. I will probably most likely,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  33:41

and my wife would also love to get hooked into like my husband played professional hockey. So I think supporting like athlete families too would be cool. So maybe the local Denver

 

Emily Merrell  33:49

sports. Oh, I like that. I think that’s a really good idea. Like hockey wives,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  33:55

especially thinking about if they, if they’re, you know, when the spouse travels because they’re playing games away, like, and when parent is home with the kids, a lot, they need sleep. So

 

Emily Merrell  34:05

wait, that’s awesome. The other thing I was, I was reading about Christina Ricci and her due to divorce, like a really crappy merit first marriage and a great second marriage. And I guess the husband’s really helpful with the baby and the second marriage. And she was, you know, she had to go back to work after, like, two months postpartum, and then the baby came with them to wherever she was filming, some foreign place. But it was like, actors probably need a good sleep consultant too. Yeah,

 

Jillian Kozlowski  34:32

one of my other goals is to get in with I worked with a lot of I had a friend at Uber and, like, get in with some corporations so that we can have them pay for sleep services, because it contributes to productivity for employees. So Amen to that 100%

 

Emily Merrell  34:46

Is it you who was talking about with carrot? No, have you heard of carrot before?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  34:51

No,

 

Emily Merrell  34:51

they’re paying for doula services, carrot providers or something. It’s like they pay the doulas and then carrot. Reimburses them, so that’s something to look into. Anyways, I side note that’s

 

Jillian Kozlowski  35:04

a similar, similar reasoning to that. I’m thinking that too. Yeah, exactly.

 

Emily Merrell  35:08

Okay, my final question for you, Jillian, is, what permission Do you want to give our listeners today?

 

Jillian Kozlowski  35:15

Who? Well, I’ll speak directly to anybody who’s listening, who’s a parent, and I think not just permission or just validation, that you know your child best and that other voices are loud, but you know your child best, and each kid might have different needs, and there are people out there to support you. So I hope you know you’re doing an incredible job. And I know you hear that and think, Oh, you don’t really know me, but there are, there are struggles when it comes to parenting. And I hope you feel validated,

 

Emily Merrell  35:50

and that’s beautiful permission. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you, Jillian, for being a part of today’s episode and for all of your incredible resources

 

Jillian Kozlowski  35:59

and tips. Thank you so much for having me.

 

Emily Merrell  36:03

We’ll see you the next time y’all on the second degree podcast, have a great day. You.